Allowing acceptable ads in Adblock Plus

Everything about using Adblock Plus on Mozilla Firefox, Thunderbird and SeaMonkey
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consumerfan
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Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:00 am

Re: Allowing acceptable ads in Adblock Plus

Post by consumerfan »

EnviroChem wrote: As Wladimir found in his survey, only a small percentage of users who use ad-block are against all ads. They are simply trying to get relief from the worst ads. The thing is by the nature of who is willing to take the time to maintain filters, ad blocking tends to be an all or nothing affair.
Wladimir's conclusions may be flawed. A small percentage of respondents who use ad-block are against all ads. However, there is no evidence that this is a representative sample of users. We shall see.
EnviroChem wrote:
Anti-Ad wrote:
EnviroChem wrote: SELF HOSTED ADS WON'T WORK FOR SMALL SITES

I suspect the extent to which Google Ads has become widespread would make this impractical, and I don't know enough technical details to know to what extent this would mitigate the privacy concerns, but I'd certainly be interested in hearing from someone who could offer some more insight into this.
Third party object requests are unacceptable.
If the goal is to change the nature of ads on the Internet, 3rd party ads have to be accepted or there will be zero buy in from websites to change behavior to get white listed.
Third party object requests are unacceptable. This is because sites do not have the ability to govern the ad style or content. Although it would be possible for an independent 4th party to regulate ads (on a voluntary basis), that doesn't happen today.

EnviroChem wrote: This goes back to what Wladimir's objectives are. If he is simply providing an addon to users, then you are correct. If on the other hand he wants to use ABP as a social engineering tool to clean up the Internet in general by giving websites a reason to use unobtrusive ads, then this option has to be opt-out in order to get the critical mass needed to provide sufficient incentive for advertisers to change. ABP also must have a big enough percentage of all users on the Internet for advertisers to feel the pain of being blocked. If only a few percent of all users are blocking ads, then this option might not have the critical mass to make it worthwhile for websites to use less intrusive ads.
He IS simply providing an addon to users. Blocking ads is Adblock Plus' raison d'etre.
Making the Internet a better place is laudable. But now, instead of providing a tool for blocking ads, we have a tool that does not.
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EnviroChem
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Re: Allowing acceptable ads in Adblock Plus

Post by EnviroChem »

consumerfan wrote:Wladimir's conclusions may be flawed. A small percentage of respondents who use ad-block are against all ads. However, there is no evidence that this is a representative sample of users. We shall see.
Whether or not the survey was a representable sample is a good question. Conducting a statistically valid survey is hard.
consumerfan wrote:Third party object requests are unacceptable. This is because sites do not have the ability to govern the ad style or content. Although it would be possible for an independent 4th party to regulate ads (on a voluntary basis), that doesn't happen today.
Actually this isn't totally true. With AdSense, for example website owners can control all of these things. There are all kinds of settings to choose from. For instance we can choose to allow only text ads or we can also allow ads with images and/or rich media. We can also choose to block ads of specific categories. For instance one of the ad categories I personally block is "Cosmetic Procedures & Body Modification" (I block several others). With text ads we can also completely control the visual styling such that the ads blend into sites better. Also if I become aware of individual advertisers who are not appropriate for my site I can block their ads.
consumerfan wrote:He IS simply providing an addon to users. Blocking ads is Adblock Plus' raison d'etre.
Making the Internet a better place is laudable. But now, instead of providing a tool for blocking ads, we have a tool that does not.
I'm not sure Wladimir sees it that way. From talking with him and seeing how Adblock has evolved over the years I do get the distinct impression that one major goal he has is to make the Internet a better place for everyone, not just ABP users. ABP could be an effective tool to affect change for the better, just like Firefox gives Mozilla leverage to help sway the direction Internet standards go in. It won't happen overnight but maybe different pressures from different directions will force advertisers to respect user's "do not track" settings.
AdvertisingIsSh-t

Re: Allowing acceptable ads in Adblock Plus

Post by AdvertisingIsSh-t »

What gives the advertisers the right to assualt our senses in the first place? Ugly billboards, ugly television, ugly internet, ugly world.

Advertisements are by their nature minsinformation and false. They imply things that aren't true and play psychological games in an attmept to manipulate their target audience. Advertising is out of control now and privacy, beauty and societal sanity is the price we're paying for their ugly greed and stupidity.

We want to block ALL ADS ALWAYS!

There are no good ads. The closest you can come is an unbiased, positive review of a product or service from someone who has nothing to gain. The thing is I can search those out when I want to. I don't want idiocy thrown in my face with every net page I visit.

NO MORE ADS! NO ADS ARE ACCEPTABLE!

ADVERTISERS AND MARKETERS ARE THE WORLD'S BIGGEST BUTTWIPES!
betrayed
Posts: 15
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Re: Allowing acceptable ads in Adblock Plus

Post by betrayed »

EnviroChem wrote: As Wladimir found in his survey, only a small percentage of users who use ad-block are against all ads. They are simply trying to get relief from the worst ads. The thing is by the nature of who is willing to take the time to maintain filters, ad blocking tends to be an all or nothing affair.
The person taking this survey had a conflict of interest. You can't take the data seriously when the one administering a survey has a conflict of interest. The proper procedure--if you really want to persuade people that you know what's best--is to commission an independent third party to do the survey. That won't work now because by representing a conflicted survey as a good one breaks the trust. It establishes that he can't be trusted to get an objective opinion. That's the problem with breaking trust: it permanently taints everything you say regardless of whether or not you're speaking in good faith. A proper survey now would only make me wonder about the other proper surveys commissioned, but were not published due to unwanted results. Corporations do this all the time in their PR. They commission honest surveys with confidentiality agreements. Then they publish the favorable ones and trash the unfavorable ones. Only they would represent a self-administered survey as having anything to do with the facts. Once they commit such a act, their word is worthless from then on. The publisher of this survey doesn't care about his word. He's just facing down the small percentage of users who are complaining, betting that a profitable number aren't active enough to bother with the issue.
Guest

Re: Allowing acceptable ads in Adblock Plus

Post by Guest »

EnviroChem wrote:
consumerfan wrote:Third party object requests are unacceptable. This is because sites do not have the ability to govern the ad style or content. Although it would be possible for an independent 4th party to regulate ads (on a voluntary basis), that doesn't happen today.
Actually this isn't totally true. With AdSense, for example website owners can control all of these things. There are all kinds of settings to choose from. For instance we can choose to allow only text ads or we can also allow ads with images and/or rich media. We can also choose to block ads of specific categories. For instance one of the ad categories I personally block is "Cosmetic Procedures & Body Modification" (I block several others). With text ads we can also completely control the visual styling such that the ads blend into sites better. Also if I become aware of individual advertisers who are not appropriate for my site I can block their ads.
AdSense has a different problem; it's Google. Google is too pervasive. IMO, users cannot trust Google for both tools (search, maps), adverts and voice. Only one of these.
I trust them only for the first of these. From a user perspective, Google as a 3rd party ad service is also problematic because it's difficult to block at all. If you use any Google services, whether through google.com or embedded in 3rd party websites, you have to open your browser to them.
EnviroChem wrote:
consumerfan wrote:He IS simply providing an addon to users. Blocking ads is Adblock Plus' raison d'etre.
Making the Internet a better place is laudable. But now, instead of providing a tool for blocking ads, we have a tool that does not.
I'm not sure Wladimir sees it that way. From talking with him and seeing how Adblock has evolved over the years I do get the distinct impression that one major goal he has is to make the Internet a better place for everyone, not just ABP users. ABP could be an effective tool to affect change for the better, just like Firefox gives Mozilla leverage to help sway the direction Internet standards go in. It won't happen overnight but maybe different pressures from different directions will force advertisers to respect user's "do not track" settings.
The difference is that Mozilla is proactive in improving privacy for users, and blocking threats. They therefore have the trust of their users to be able to further the cause.
By opting the ABP userbase into adverts without consent, Wladimir breaks the trust of the users. He then expects those same users to trust the whitelist which can also be updated without explicit consent.
Most users won't know what the implications are until they see the adverts. They won't understand. They'll ask someone like me and I will tell them to use a different version/product. I won't explain it to them (unless they ask) because they won't understand, and they don't really care. They just want the adverts to shut up and stop blocking the content.
LorenzoC

Re: Allowing acceptable ads in Adblock Plus

Post by LorenzoC »

I'm not sure Wladimir sees it that way. From talking with him and seeing how Adblock has evolved over the years I do get the distinct impression that one major goal he has is to make the Internet a better place for everyone, not just ABP users. ABP could be an effective tool to affect change for the better
Everybody these days seems to be on a mission from God to bring me to a "better place". For some reason the idea I can decide by myself is not even considered.
I must stop using a PC to get a touch screen and mobile device. I must change the way I use it. I must stop using a software that isn't "social" enough, so it is brought down. I must use ABP with the provided subscriptions, so I can make an "agreement" with advertisers. Well it is not me making the agreement, it is ABP staff for my own sake.
superpupsi
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Re: Allowing acceptable ads in Adblock Plus

Post by superpupsi »

Just registered to voice my opinion. Downgraded to 1.3.10. ABP is good work, but going into the wrong direction.
Kyanar

Re: Allowing acceptable ads in Adblock Plus

Post by Kyanar »

Well, I had a look through the whitelist, thinking "I'm sure after all this hoopla that only trustworthy advertisers would be allowed"... and what do I see? Google, GuruAds (who I can't even find a website for - sounds legit!) and Sedo. FRIGGING SCUM OF THE EARTH SEDO.

And, of course, it's all or nothing. Either whitelist all ads (including the aforementioned scum, of which the entire whitelist is consisted) or whitelist none. I pick none, and frankly through this action you've destroyed my trust in your addon. This seems to be a recurring trend in Firefox addons lately (Download Statusbar, AdBlock Plus...)
anonymous74100
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Re: Allowing acceptable ads in Adblock Plus

Post by anonymous74100 »

I find it strange that so many people take the survey seriously, there no proof that the results are not faked. Wladimir posts pictures in his blog that perfectly align with his goals and no one is questioning the authenticity? Stop citing the survey results like it is some kind of a fact.
It's quite obvious that Wladimir won't change his mind, just look at his latest blog post. You can't reason with delusional people who think they are doing the right thing.
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MonztA
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Re: Allowing acceptable ads in Adblock Plus

Post by MonztA »

@anonymous74100
Then prove the survey results are fake.
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vinny86
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Re: Allowing acceptable ads in Adblock Plus

Post by vinny86 »

anonymous74100 wrote:I find it strange that so many people take the survey seriously, there no proof that the results are not faked. Wladimir posts pictures in his blog that perfectly align with his goals and no one is questioning the authenticity? Stop citing the survey results like it is some kind of a fact.
It's quite obvious that Wladimir won't change his mind, just look at his latest blog post. You can't reason with delusional people who think they are doing the right thing.
@ Wladimir : If you read this, write a blog post revealing the details of the survey ( raw data and code used ? ) as to pacify the skeptical users a little bit. It might increase the credibility of the decision
MonztA
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Re: Allowing acceptable ads in Adblock Plus

Post by MonztA »

Raw data? That could also easily be faked.

Why has Wladimir to explain himself?
anonymous74100
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Re: Allowing acceptable ads in Adblock Plus

Post by anonymous74100 »

MonztA wrote:Raw data? That could also easily be faked.
That's the point. Wladimir has all the raw data and since he was interested in a specific survey result (people supporting "acceptable" ads), the results he published can't be trusted. It's a simple conflict of interest.
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vinny86
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Re: Allowing acceptable ads in Adblock Plus

Post by vinny86 »

MonztA wrote:Raw data? That could also easily be faked.

Why has Wladimir to explain himself?
Good point, he doesn't. But IMO if he can, i think he should, its just good PR. But like you said, anything can be faked.
It might not convince the ultra-skeptical, but it will convince those who are on the fence. Then again, i might be totally wrong :P
LorenzoC

Re: Allowing acceptable ads in Adblock Plus

Post by LorenzoC »

Over 20 million users only 44,460 have been selected for the survey, something like 0.2%.

But it doesn't matter and I don't know why everybody is speaking of it.
The point here is:
1. ABP has a "partnership agreement" in place with some advertisers.
2. as result a whitelist of "acceptable advertisers" was added and made default.
3. the said whitelist is shown as an opt-out checkbox instead as regular subscription because of "usability issues".

Now, point 1 rises doubts about the future of ABP development, points 2 and 3 rise doubts about information provided to the users.

Wladimir can get offended by people questioning his integrity but I would like to know what he would say if the chief of the local Police tells him: "you know Wladimir, this is the plan: to keep worst criminals at bay we are going to partner with "not so bad guys" so they pay us some money and in exchange we bring them around to visit some houses. Everybody can opt-out signing this paper with the text "I don't agree visits to my house"." Besides, if Wladimir has got the goal to rework the Internet, I guess nothing "the community" can say makes any difference.
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